117 - How Physicians Can Leverage Green & Blue Temperaments to Build a Burnout-Resistant Work Culture and Thriving Medical Practice

Do you struggle to connect with your quieter team members—or worse, misread their silence as apathy?

In part 2 of our temperament series, Ellen Gray (Director of Certification at I Said This, You Heard That) returns to help us unpack the introverted side of communication—specifically, the Green and Blue temperaments. These quiet contributors are essential in every thriving medical practice, but they’re often misunderstood or overlooked. That’s a mistake.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

• How to identify Greens & Blues on your team—and what they need from you
• Why these temperaments are vital for team stability, emotional safety, and burnout prevention
• How knowing your team's wiring can help you delegate better, hire smarter, and even improve patient relationships

If you're a physician looking to reduce stress and lead with more clarity and compassion, this episode will completely reframe how you see your team. Hit play now.

Links to Books and Resources

• I Said This, You Heard That 2025 Edition
• A Grown-Up's Guide To Kids' Wiring

Follow Ellen on social media

• Website: https://isaidyouheard.com/
• Instagram: @isaidyouheard AND @kathleenedelman
• Facebook: I Said This, You Heard That
• LinkedIn: Ellen Gray and Kathleen Edelman

You can also visit the Open-Source Psychometrics Project here for a free temperament assessment 

https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/O4TS/

Discover how medical graduates, junior doctors, and young physicians can navigate residency training programs, surgical residency, and locum tenens to increase income, enjoy independent practice, decrease stress, achieve financial freedom, and retire early, while maintaining patient satisfaction and exploring physician side gigs to tackle medical school loans.

Transcript

Coach JPMD (00:00.312)
So by the end of this episode, you'll understand why quiet doesn't always mean disengaged and how knowing someone's temperament can change the entire approach to communicating and leadership. Welcome back to another episode where I help younger physicians decrease stress and increase income by transitioning from corporate to independent practices, even without any business experience. So in this part two episode on temperaments,

You're going to learn how to identify greens and blues on your team and what they need from you. You'll also find out why these temperaments are vital for team stability, emotional safety, and burnout prevention. And lastly, you'll learn how knowing your team's wiring can help you delegate better, hire smarter, and even improve patient relationships. So we're back with Ellen Gray.

the director of the certification at I said this you heard that and We're back to continue the conversation on temperaments last week. We covered the yellows and the reds and if you haven't had an episode haven't had a chance to listen to that episode Go back listen to it because it kind of explains what temperaments are We're not gonna go really in depth on what those those the definitions and how we got to the temperaments

because we really want to focus on the greens and blues. Because, you know, my wife actually, a blue, why isn't she a green? I have to look at that again. She's going to kill me for not knowing this off the top of my head. But nonetheless, thank you, Ellen, for coming back on the podcast, The Independent Physicians and Blueprint, where we help physicians understand how to decrease their stress and generate wealth in this crazy world that we're living in. I think this is

important in helping them understand who they are. And without their knowledge of who they are, they really can't help anyone else. So thank you for coming back.

Ellen Gray (01:57.858)
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

So tell us, we talked about yellows and blues. We found out that your husband was a yellow and you're a blue green. I'm a blue. No, no, Yeah. red, purple, That's right. And I'm a red. So what about the greens and the blues? Tell us how, and what are their characteristics?

Yeah, so what I don't know if you listen to last week's episode, you remember that the reds and the yellows shared the fact that they were extroverted. And so what the blues and the greens, what we're going to talk about today, what the blues and the greens share are the fact that they are introverted. And our definition is doesn't have to do with where you get your energy. We are talking about communication. And so for blues and for greens, they are introverted, which means their thoughts and emotions go inward first.

They are internal processors. They have filters, sometimes too much of a filter. And so they think before they speak. So that's what the blues and the greens have in common. They are more quiet, reserved people typically. Now, just like the reds and the yellows from last week, there is one thing that differentiates a green and a blue, and that is their task versus people orientation. So our greens are people-oriented introverts, which some people

think, well, that can't be possible. But it can because when we're talking about communication, Greens, like I said, their thoughts and emotions go inward first, but they're people oriented. So they will choose a person over a task every time. They love fostering connection and relationships more than getting things done.

Coach JPMD (03:41.454)
And as you say that, I said, my gosh, of course, that's my wife. That's my wife. She's a queen.

not surprised opposites attract and so you're red, she's green, you're diagonal from each other, you're absolute opposites for sure. My husband and I are as well and we can be the most dynamic combination which we can talk about later. So for the blues, they are introverts but they're also task oriented introverts. So they will choose a task over a person, they will choose getting things done, they are our list makers, our planners, they love calendars and maps.

They just like, for example, I like to make a list and I'll even put things on the list I've already done just so can check it off. Okay. Like we love a list. We love accomplishing things. And so that's the difference. The greens are quiet people oriented people and the blues are quiet task oriented people.

And I think by my son, one of my sons is blue and he wanted to be an engineer at one point and fly planes. And he doesn't like close contact with anyone. He just liked to kind of stand back. So it's very, very interesting to hear and see all the different temperaments, even in the kids. You can have four kids have four different temperaments.

That's it for him.

Ellen Gray (05:04.846)
That's right. You've got to learn how to parent them differently.

And we didn't even talk about that in the first episode, that's, you know, the more kids you have, the more difficulty you have in dealing with their different type of, because they're going to want different things at different times.

That's right. And they're going to be motivated by different things. So you've got to figure out how to, you've got to give consequences differently. You send a blue to his room as a consequence, that will make his day. He'd love to be in his room reading a book by himself, right? You send a yellow to his room and it's the end of the world. So you've got to figure out, and that's another conversation for another day. this is a great example in life and in our working world, we work with every different color.

And so it's really important to know the people around you. First, you gotta know yourself, because you can't give what you don't have. You've gotta know yourself well enough to live in your strengths. And to know the people around you well enough to go, okay, how can I speak to them in a way they can understand? Because like we said last week, our last episode, everybody is looking through colored glasses. So again, if we're talking about the blues, they wear blue colored glasses. They see the world through blue lenses.

a blue and a green can be looking at the exact same thing, but they perceive it differently because again, have the greens have green tinted glasses. And so it's just a great way to help people understand that though we do see the same things, there's not necessarily right or wrong way to describe it. We just have different ways of thinking and different ways of speaking.

Coach JPMD (06:39.072)
And so what are some of the needs of a green? Let's say they like people, they like to connect. Is there something that would really make them have a bad day? What are the things that they really, really need?

Yes, I'm glad you brought up needs. Each temperament has four innate needs and we can't get into all of it. But again, I'll plug the book. I said this, you heard that. It's got all this in it. But the highest need for a green is harmony. That is the number one. So if a green's going to have a bad day, it's because their schedule is super stressed. People around them aren't getting along. There's conflict everywhere. That is going to send them in a tailspin because having peace and harmony is their number one.

and they need.

so what about blues? What's their...

Blues, so the number one need of a blue is safety. And that's of course physical safety, but also relational safety. So for them, if they are feeling like they're in a bunch of relationships that they don't feel safe in, they're just gonna crumble. They're not gonna talk, they're gonna shut down. Blues have a lot to bring to the world, but they first need to know that the people around them are trustworthy before they're going to talk and share.

Coach JPMD (07:56.39)
So we've gone through the four temperaments. Right. these temperaments, actually the blues and the greens seem like they're more the mellow kind. What happens once you get to know these temperaments and you get smart about them and you try to manipulate? Is there a way to prevent yourself from manipulating others by knowing these temperaments? Because I see that that could be a tendency.

You know the person is a yellow, you know they're loud and boisterous, and you can kind of use that against them.

Sure, sure. I think that's a fair question. One thing to know, it's funny coming from you knowing you're a Red. Reds only do things that are going to benefit them. So it's not, I'm not surprised that you would ask the question. But we hope that again, people are wanting to and striving to live in their strengths. If they're living in their strengths and they're communicating to others in their language, in the other person's language, you really won't have a need for that, right? You're going to know.

I know that a yellow is gonna be motivated by people and fun, right? We know that. Their four innate needs are attention, affection, affirmation, approval. So the four A's, and I said them out of order, which is what tripped me up. So if we know these are their four needs, then I'm gonna do what I can to fill those needs. Not to get something for me, but you're gonna help them be the...

best version of themselves if you know their innate needs are being met, right? So if you have goals for the people that you work with, you have goals for your family, the best way all those people will live in their strengths and reach those goals is if their innate needs are being met. And that's a whole, again, the innate needs is such a deep dive topic for each color.

Ellen Gray (09:52.332)
but just knowing the innate need of the person, of yourself, making sure your needs are being met. I tell people all the time like, hey, self-care is awesome. There's a lot out there on self-care, but if you're not, if you take time for self-care and you're not making sure you're filling your own innate needs, it's kind of a waste. It's really not gonna help you. Like a massage is great and all, or whatever you do for self-care, but for me, for example, as a blue, one of my main needs is space and silence. So for me,

My self-care looks like getting up early before the rest of my house, having my cup of coffee, reading a book, maybe going for a walk. Just having that quiet time does more for me than a massage or a pedicure. Do you know what I mean? knowing your innate needs and taking care of yourself is so important.

That's interesting.

Coach JPMD (10:40.59)
And so you bringing up what you said about the Reds wanting to know how to not manipulate is interesting because that is, I think, one of the weaknesses. So if a Red is acting in their strengths, that should never be an issue. That's right. So you really need to identify what your weaknesses are before you ask questions like I did.

Well, it's a great question. It's a great example for us.

Yeah, it was great. So, how does one train themselves in identifying who's who? Because I think that's something I promised in the first episode and wanted to make sure that we lived up to that promise. And so, I kind of know how to identify the reds because reds are like me. How do we identify green? How do we identify blue and be able to...

maybe the one thing that we can see or notice to identify them.

Okay, so I'm going give you all my pro tips and then if you can't figure it out from here, take the assessment online, get the book, there's assessment in the book, it's pretty easy. So for me, you asked yourself two questions when you're with this person, are they extroverted or introverted in communication? Again, so do they wear their heart on their sleeve? Do they seem like they have a filter or not? That's pretty easy to figure out.

Coach JPMD (12:02.862)
So if they have a filter, they're blue green. If they don't have a filter, they're just sharing their whole world, their life story. They're probably extra red, yellow and red. Okay.

Yellow or red. then, so then you know, okay, I've either got a yellow red or I've got a blue green. Then you think through the people orientation versus the task orientation. Does this person really love fostering connection with people? Or does this person seem more of like a list maker task oriented person? More interested in accomplishing tasks than maybe hanging out with the group. So those are your cheats. If they're task oriented,

They're going to be reds or blues. And if they're people oriented, they're yellows or greens. So again, if you've already figured out introvert and extrovert, then you can go, okay, well then based on if their people are tasked, now I know their color. Some other pro tips is greens are the kindest, the most innately kind of all the temperaments. And because they are so adaptable, adaptability is one of their strengths, they are harder to figure out.

if what their color is because they adapt so well to the people around them. So in one such, if they're around a red, they might seem reddish. If they're around a yellow, they might seem yellowish because they are, we call the greens are chameleons.

Yes. So sometimes they're harder to figure out just because they're so adaptable, but everybody else is honestly, once you start practicing this, can figure people out pretty quickly.

Coach JPMD (13:40.206)
So this is actually really important. we're making light of, I'm not making light of it, but this could work for patients. It could work for your team as a leader in your practice. You can identify people who might be better leaders, better office managers, better team leaders by just asking a couple of questions.

And so I think that these are really, really cool tips that you're sharing with us. And as leaders, think, you we talked about maybe even having some another episode or a similar episode to this on leadership. I wonder if, do we have time to chat about leaders and how they can use these tips and tools?

Yeah, sure, we can do it. I just want to emphasize, I love what you said. Like if you know the temperament of your patient, you will approach them completely differently. They will feel valued by you if you talk to a red like a red. Reds want you to be blunt and direct. They don't want you to be around the bush just telling like it is. Greens need a lot more kindness, need you to go slow, need you to understand, need to know that you are.

spending enough time with them. They don't want to feel rushed. those are just little, like it would just make such a difference for everyone, the way you approach patients. And like you said, even in hiring, now one thing I would be amiss if I didn't say is every color can be a great leader. Just because reds are the natural born leaders, it doesn't mean that every color can't be a great leader. For example, greens are actually the best leaders of people because they care about people and fostering those connections, right?

Reds are great visionaries, administrators, know, keeping the train rolling down the tracks. But you need a blue, red needs a blue because where the red can see the vision and the destination, the blue will help the red see the potential obstacles and they're really good at creatively problem solving. So you put a red and a blue together, they're like unstoppable. And so again, you're starting to see

Ellen Gray (15:49.696)
we all need to work together and we need all the colors in our office. We need all the colors to really maximize our practice in my opinion. So.

Just as another question to piggyback off of that, so then are there professions that we as physicians should consider not getting into based on our temperament? And is there research behind that?

I'm sure there's tons of research around it that we could ask a college counselor for. know, I mean, I remember filling out those things as an 18-year-old. you should probably do this. I'm not sure 18-year-olds know themselves well enough for those to be accurate. But the point of the story is, sure, there are certain career fields that might be better suited for certain people. For example, a blue stereotypically would make a great engineer one day.

But that doesn't mean that in the engineering field, they still need yellows. They still need people in the office who are red. Someone's got to lead the company, right? Someone's got every there's all these different roles. So even if you're, say, you're a physician, you can be a wonderful physician if you can learn to harness your strengths. You don't I don't want anyone to think, oh, I've chosen the wrong profession. No. If you're a task oriented person and you're with people all day, then you're going to have to figure out.

Okay, I may have to put these people on my to-do list. And if I see these people as tasks, as harsh as this sounds, it's actually going to help the task-oriented physicians do better with the people if they feel like I am accomplishing my tasks by being really, really good with this person. Does that make sense? So it's all about orienting your mind around what are my strengths and what are my weakness tendencies and how am I going to manage those tendencies.

Ellen Gray (17:36.65)
in a way that really honors my career and the people that I'm around.

Very interesting. Very, very interesting. So I know you had some, some other things you want to kind of, kind of discuss on leadership and how temperament is playing a role in that. What are your thoughts on that?

Yes. Okay. So I'll try not to blaze through this, but this is some great stuff. So for our yellow leaders out there, I know this is really, we tried to stick to blue green on this thing, but we're going to go back to yellows for a minute. For yellow leaders, just know yellows bring balance to conflict and problems. They have an unmatched force of enthusiasm and encouragement, and they have a genuine desire for team success. They really want the whole team to thrive.

more than anybody else. If you're leading a yellow, so say Jude, you're red, you're leading a yellow, some things to do when you're around your yellow coworkers, be positive, make eye contact, listen to their stories, and then take them serious when needed. Like I said, they want you to know they can be serious. What you don't wanna do for yellows on your team,

is be too serious. You have to show them you can lighten up a little bit. You're not always business all the time, which is hard for rents, as I understand. You can't demand perfection. Don't require them to always be on. You've got to give yellows some time to be wiggly, to be silly, to be goofy. They've got to have some space where that's okay. And then don't consume all of their free time because yellows need fun. And so you've got to let them have that.

Ellen Gray (19:19.566)
in their world. So, you want me to move to reds? Yeah, sure. I'll just quickly. Red leaders, they're visionaries that can keep things moving towards accomplishment. They're great at training, guiding, and encouraging their teams. They're productive and they lead by example. So, if you're leading a red, if you're the chief leader and you're not red and you have someone red under you,

you are going to feel that tension that they want to be in charge because they do. But that's a whole other thing of how to lead when you're not in charge. But anyways, what to do when you're leading a red, they want you to speak logically and realistically. They want you to speak direct. They really don't want the fluff. The least amount of words just get to the point. Encourage their intellect and include them in decision making as much as you can. What not to do with the reds on your team.

Don't argue with or lecture them. Don't be overly emotional or be too authoritative. And definitely don't embarrass them in front of a group. So those are our top tricks and tips for yellows and red leaders.

So that's, so when you are consulting for organizations, how does that play a role? How do you insert that? Because there may be two reds as leaders. How do you, how do you reconcile that?

Well, we just got it's through a lot of guided conversations because when you have two or three reds in a very close and leadership like there's a lot of chiefs in the CP. It's a lot of people who want to be in charge. So one again, we're also we're starting with self-awareness. Like I'm sure those people have felt that tension before, but let's give them language to talk about it. And then let's figure out the same thing I do with my red child. We want to give each red something to be in control of.

Ellen Gray (21:20.334)
Give them a lane and let them own the lane. Don't micromanage them in that lane. Just give it to them and go, totally trust you completely. giving those Reds ownership will really help them.

I think that could be the case for physicians also if you have five orthopedic surgeons in a room and they're probably going to be reds. You're going to have to give them maybe each surgeon gets a joint or gets an operating room or gets

different projects, you know, and then and then the reds have to learn for themselves soften our edges and be open to feedback. Be open to it's not my way or the highway like I know have that tendency. But if I'm going to live in my strengths, I'm going to be open to collaboration. Right. So it's, it's just it's all about growing in our own in our own self awareness. For sure. So let me I'll run through the blues and the greens. know that we need to wrap up. Okay.

No, no, you've got time.

So for our blue leaders, if you're a blue leader out there, which means again, you're a task-oriented introvert, blue leaders are detailed and empathetic in their understanding of those that they lead. Blue leaders harmonize interpersonal relationships into productivity, and they are creative out-of-the-box problem solvers. As far as if you're leading a blue, if you've got a blue on your team that you're leading,

Ellen Gray (22:45.088)
what to do, give them details. They will thrive on details. If you just say, plan something for us with no detail, they will crumble. So give them as many details as possible. They will shine. will take, our blues are perfectionists. So you set them up for success. They will make it as perfect as they can. That's right. Believe in them and communicate that belief in them. Cause blues really struggle with self doubt.

I take notes.

Ellen Gray (23:14.594)
So help them formulate a plan B and be sensitive to their emotions. And then what not to do if you're leading a blue, please don't interrupt them. It's hard enough for them to speak up. It takes a lot of sometimes a pregnant pause for them to even talk, to even have the courage to speak up. So when they do, please don't interrupt them. Don't expect spontaneity. If something changes that they didn't see coming, blues have a hard time with change. And sometimes,

like the most self-aware ones just need a minute or two. They just have to sort of recalibrate in their brain because blues wake up with like, say you have a pie chart. Blues already know where every piece of their time fits in their pie chart for the day. So when something comes into their pie chart that wasn't pre-planned, they freak out because they don't think they have space for it. It's not gonna work. Give them a few minutes, let them re-figure it out in their brain, then they'll be fine.

But again, whereas yellows are great with spontaneity, blues are not. And so the more heads up, the more lead time you can give a blue, the better. And then be sensitive to their emotions. said that. So what to not do, I said, don't expect spontaneity, don't dismiss their emotions, and don't join in on the negativity. So unfortunately, blues have a tendency to see the negative, to point it out, to be judgmental.

just don't join in with them because it can become a toxic spiral. And so you want to lead the way with positivity.

And as you say, as you're saying this, I can hear myself really sabotage relationships, especially with one of my children, because I do the complete opposite of this and I can see the death spiral of emotions and just everything just falling apart when we're not listening to their temperament and listening to where they're at, how they are. So.

Coach JPMD (25:15.467)
I think a lot of breakdowns in relationships may be related to this, not understanding how to deal with their temperaments.

Absolutely and one thing about blues blues are fine if you don't agree with them They just want to know that you understand where they're coming from so in in work and as a dad You know, you don't have to agree with your child But say just saying something as simple as hey, I totally understand where you're coming from or I totally see why you would think that Because of your past experience or because of what you've been through in work saying the same things just that just that statement

disarms the blue and helps them feel safe with you. So again, you don't have to agree, just help them know you understand them. Okay, so for green leaders, green leaders provide a great support system, a great place to work and flexibility. Green leaders focus their care more on their people and processes more than the end result. And green leaders are the best at working smarter, not harder.

So greens are amazing at that. So if you ever need to figure out, God, this seems too complicated. Well, call a green friend, be like, or another green physician and say, hey, this is how we do it. What are we missing? What do you see is a better way? They will probably know a work smarter, harder solution for you. Green. So if you're leading a green, if you've got a green on your team, what to do, be kind and criticism. Remember that they are the kindest. are the most innately kind temperament. So be kind back.

Encourage involvement because they will most naturally hang back and not get involved or volunteer give them time to process and Let them do one task at a time. So again, they they are a lot like the blues They need time to process their internal processors. So again Something coming up at the last second They're not going to do as well if you've got a meeting tomorrow if you can send an agenda ahead of time The blues and the greens will thank you and respect you more

Ellen Gray (27:20.11)
The reds and yellows, they don't need an agenda. They're happy to just come and shoot. Right. They are the kings of winging it. The greens and the blues do not want to wing it. Right. So, so give them an agenda. Right. And then what not to do with our greens. Don't mistake their quiet for apathy. A lot of times greens forget to tell their face to smile. They can come across as very unenthusiastic.

And wing it.

Ellen Gray (27:47.35)
Right? But don't mistake that for apathy. They care deeply. That's just them. And they're just quiet people. But what you may find is if you're sitting in a meeting and the greens have nothing to say, let's say the blues and the greens aren't talking because the reds and the yellows are jeopardizing the conversation. If a blue walks out of that meeting, they will probably circle back with someone who was there and say, hey, what do you think about this idea? I kind of had to say.

Unfortunately, if you let a green leave a meeting and they didn't say anything, that great idea they had walks out of the meeting with them. They're not going to circle back around. You missed it. So really making sure, hey, if you got a green on your team, hey, what are your thoughts? Making sure they're included. If they don't have thoughts, they'll tell you, but probably they do and they're just waiting for a time to speak. And then the other, I've just got two more.

Not listening when greens speak up. It's a lot like the blue. Listen when they talk and don't expect things done on your timeframe. Greens operate at a different pace than a lot of people, but they will meet your deadline. As a blue, I would really prefer things done like nine days ahead of time. It just makes me feel more secure. Greens, if it's due in nine days, they'll do it in nine days, but it'll be on time.

Right? so you need to know, hey, if you say this is the deadline, don't circle back and expect it before then. So I hope that's helpful.

Is it helpful? I mean, this is almost like a master class on temperaments at this point. This is awesome. you know, all I can do is tell my audience that I've read this book probably twice and I'm still getting stuff out of this. I'm still getting information out of this. And so I recommend everyone to pick up this handbook or this book. There's a video that we watched that Kathleen interviewed four different temperament people with four different temperaments.

Coach JPMD (29:52.14)
They were wearing different clothes and it's an app. shared that with my team. And it's just so enlightening because it allows us to know who we are. And then of course, then to help our people and help our patients. Because that's ultimately what we're doing here is trying to help our patients live long and live healthy. But if you're not communicating with them, if you're not listening to them and you're not getting their points across, it's going to go to deaf ears.

That's right.

Thank you for your work. Thank you for everything you've done and what you continue to do. And we're going to share this far and wide. And we'll have all the show notes. And thank you again for coming on the podcast.

Thanks for having me. It's been a joy.

All right now, so that's a wrap. A wrap on part two of our temperament deep dive. Big thanks to Ellen Gray for breaking down the greens and blues, also known as the silent powerhouses we keep overlooking in our medical practices and even at home. If you're out there leading a team, raising a family or trying to try not to lose your mind in team meetings, this stuff matters. Greens and blues might not be the loudest in the room like the reds are.

Coach JPMD (31:04.462)
But they are often the glue that keeps everything together. Misread them and you're missing out on your biggest asset.